The Milwaukee police department has had 3 incidents of the Sig discharging while being in a holster sitting in a patrol car in 2023. Inside the gun, a metal piece called the sear should keep the weapon from firing until the trigger is pulled. Its also beyond debate that current production Sig quality is drastically inferior to what it once was, particularly the German made pieces. The hype leading up to the P365 was pretty intense and the LGS sold a bunch of those. My gun just went off! No Warp core, just a quantum singularity, The engine was basically a dorm fridge. There was no holster involved. If the P320 was so great then why did special forces go to the Glock 19? The guys at the LGS saw only one broken striker but it confirmed what the manager who had the P320 go off and my thoughts. Quite frankly, a sizable number of the LEOs that go there, would benefit from a Gun Safety 101 class. I lost $150 dumping that gun and Sig instead of acknowledging that it had a problem and calling it a recall, denied all and everything and called it a voluntary upgrade., At my LGS a P320 just went off when one of the guys put it the counter when he set up a target. He wasnt aware of it until contacted earlier this week by CBC News and suggested it was relevant in ongoing litigation in the U.S. We look forward to reviewing the incident in discovery in the United States, he said Friday. I know off body carry is a recipe for disaster. Both companies, instead, took to pro-gun industry forums to offer a rebuttal, giving no opportunity to answer questions. I own Serpa holsters in multiple configurations (1911, Beretta 96, H&K, Springfield, etc) for most of the time theyve been around and I NEVER had an ND. Too Many Accidents 3 disaster is true and if it is Sig will go all out to cover it up if it was. All polymer guns are cheap, cheap, cheap to make, thats why I threw the Taurus name into the mix. Liberal, Conservative. Not just police in US had issues with sig p320. The military is already shopping for a new sidearm. First I have no problem with the Mk 25 or any other Sig thats metal. He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. There are a few examples, I admitS&Ws M&P from around 2014 were near junk and I wouldnt have bothered to own one as a trotline weight, but apparently S&W had righted that ship since then. But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? Cops are crap with guns, unlike me, a REAL pistolero! The American manufacturer of the new pistols belonging to Canadas special forces claims the soldier wounded in an accidental discharge last fall was using the wrong holster for the weapon. Yes, a lot of police officers only shoot when they have to for qual. You need to deliberately thumb the Pythons hammer back to get that trigger pull, each and every time. But it hardly indicts the P320 as a badly engineered weapon or that its worse than another brand. It was one of the first ones and was sent back as a voluntary upgrade. The fact is that the plaintiffs will get paid regardless of who did what. I dont care about the upgrade that should never happen. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Sigs bid was low because they were still pissed after being beat by Beretta in cost. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. And the fact they used real models, and big ones, gives the ships a real sense of heft, mass, movement and solidity that the garbage CGI ships of the new movies just cannot remotely compete with. Both versions of the ABC report included comments from Officer Hiltons attorney, Jeffrey Bagnell, who said, Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, Simply put, the P320 is not safe and the lawsuits arent frivolous. Bagnell is representing a number of the police officers who have filed suits against SIG for un-commanded discharges, but wouldnt disclose the exact number. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. ABCs own hired consultant, who appears to have no dog in these fights, asserted that he could find no reasonable explanation for these claims and that he considers the upgraded P320 pistols safe for sale to law enforcement and the public. All chasing that pot of gold at the end of litigation.. Not that big of a stretch when considering the lawyers beating the bushs for clients to add to the lawsuits, and the fact many of them will lose their jobs if its proven to NOT be the gun, but instead negligence on their part. Asked if the guns in these cases could have been mishandled, Villani responds, When I see videos of police officers getting out of their car and their weapon discharges in their holsters, nah, theres a problem with the gun. ABC then ran bodycam footage of a pre-upgrade P320 firing as a Michigan state trooper exited his patrol car in 2016 with no mention of the results of any subsequent investigation. The suit mirrors lawsuits filed across the country involving the semi-automatic gun known as the P320. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. The suit also cites other occurrences of "un-commanded" discharges with the 320 while holstered. To give you an example of early self-propelled lawn mowers if you lost your grip on the handles the mower would not shut off and it would take off on its own right down the street all by itself. How many times does a pistol have to malfunction before you blame it? Picard if Im limited to NCC-1701. Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, resulting in injury and his unit withdrawing the pistol from service. Seems a bit apologetic to me. Folks disagree on brands. To me it was unreal, $600 to ask a question about WOK and a picture. So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio? Sometimes you dont get what you pay for but now SIG has bragging rights. Harrison responded, No, I dont think the upgraded version should be recalled, in fact I think the previous version should be recalled so that everyone has the upgraded version.. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. It SHOULD have more engagement width wise, but often doesnt due to things being rounded or out of square. After all, there are limits on complying with Rule 2 and even Rule 3, because a gun muzzle is ALWAYS covering something, somewhere, and ALWAYS knowing what lies beyondperhaps FAR beyonda possible target is an impossibility. But then Im not a federal LE flunky who cant keep my booger hook off the bang switch, either. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. There are tens of millions of gun owners, far more than there are cops, and the VAST majority of those folks buy their guns and drop them a nightstand drawer or up on a closet shelf and leave it until theyre needed. The thing I hate is getting kicked around! Were not saying that the suits against GLOCK are any more (or less) substantiated than those against SIG. In 1982 the G17 hit the market and in 1983 they gave 30,000 pistols to the Austrian military at cost. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! Just because someone shoots hyper-unrealistic 3 gun competition, subscribes to Recoil magazine and routinely watches their fave rave YouTube cult of personality channel shill for the latest company that paid him off doesnt make them a [emailprotected]$$. Hey, Im glad theres somethings we agree on! LOL! Sig fanboys are almost as bad as Glock fanboys. Use a proper holster and follow other gun safety protocols. He wanted TTAG to convey that hes pro-Second Amendment. In the case of the 320, lightning is striking the same place an awful lot. Too much MIM in that crap SIG, the old ones were great. The investigation revealed the use of an incorrect holster not designed for a [SIG] P320, said the statement, which was released Friday and posted to a U.S. online pro-industry publication, Soldier Systems. Fundamentally, the bits that the ambulance chaser claims are flawed function exactly the same way as a S&W M&P. Let us look at the history of other consumer products. Ditto; that's what i was getting at earlier Bear007 Custom Aug 25, 2021 #18 If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. But hey, in ruthless, lawless, Capitalvania were life is considered cheap and expendable no one gives a shit, especially the Far Right that screams about abortions and then kills off the children that were not aborted with loaded guns laying around the house. What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! (b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. As far as ships go, Im drawn to the original movie vessels because they look the most, to me, like something youd really see humans build in space in 300 years. Harrison stated that, I have not seen enough to convince me that the upgraded version is dangerous., When ABCs David Scott asked Harrison if its a mystery whats going wrong with the updated version though Harrison had just stated the upgraded pistol isnt dangerous Harrison said, I do not have an explanation for why the updated version should have complaints from trained individuals. Once word of that got out there was an avalanche of sexual harassment lawsuits against Fox news. The Hide Armory. Its a novelty, its got issues! On Thursday, M.D. Id read that for TMP, they got NASA to help in the design of the refit Enterprise. I went to an outdoor public range with a local SWAT entry team leader. If it were the guns, there would be thousands of cases involving citizensbut there arent. 1) The p320 doesnt hold the striker fully to the rear. Which in and of itself is user error / misuse. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. I call b-s on all these my gun magically went off. That said, I own multiple P320s, but all of them have the manual safety due to personal preference. Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. One, the energy necessary to lift the striker-securing safety plunger may be insufficient due to a too-weak spring, or a too-light plunger, or some other design flaw, to reliably engage the plunger where it belongs. Weird how that might happen. 3. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. (unless theyre SWAT or something). ABC News ran two reports on the topic last week, highlighting one particular cop in Bridge City, Texas who is suing SIG for $15 million. It sure wasnt her fault though, because she was flooring the. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . Theres also an un-named Texas gun shop manager who says a P320 fired as he cleared the weapon, blowing off one of his fingers. Without a loser pays tort system, such abuse will go on and on. The Collette suit, for example, lists 39 such discharges, all but five of which involved law enforcement officers. They admitted their problem and fixed it. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. Who function tests their firearm 1) with a round in the chamber, and 2) when its pointed at an extremity? I would trust a hungry lion on the Serengeti plains of Africa more than I would a C.E.O. Whats this silly BS? and youve gotten this far reading our thread. You would have to conclude theres a problem with the product, not with the people., In the Nightline version, Bagnell says, Firearms are not subject to federal regulation. I didnt even touch it! Glocks have gone off when people attempted to holster them and after they have holstered them, some times way later after holstering them like the fellow that got into his pickup truck. Theyre just on a 30 year nap hoping what they did will carry them forever. This guy had been working at the LGS for over a decade and never had an AD or ND, he was the strictest when it came to safety. So I will just continue to carry Mexican style with my striker fired polymer wonder nine from a company that may or may not be SIG. Theyve gotten tons of contracts because the gun is cheap, cheap, cheap to make. Second, every gun maker has made lemons in the past. The drop-bang thing only happened at a very narrow event window, it was only once the Internet doom-preachers figured out that narrow window and did it over and over online did it appear to be a thing. Sig adapted and changed the pistol sufficiently to prevent even that issue. Thats deflecting from the real issue. At least the Lion roars when he is hungry, the C.E.O smiles at you and when you turn your back he puts a knife right into it. Before the madness SIGS were expensive. A fellow kept his DA revolver in the desk. Hilton has filed a $15 million lawsuit alleging the P320 has a serious design and manufacturing flaw. Trying to categorically say Brand X is better than Brand Y! Sigs suck and my Glock is awesome!. NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. 2. Frankly, I think that ship is the best looking sci-fi ship design ever, with the Excelsior a very close second. I agree. The latest of these suits was filed last week in US District Court in Massachusetts. At the risk of sounding superstitious lets review Sigs latest turd pistol. Im reading about a moron who wraps a loaded firearm in a cloth and stuff it in a gym bag, and other dumb behavior that tells me the weapon isnt the problem but the user. Yes, conspiracy to defraud is a thing when ones @ss is on the line. 1.A rush to market, and as usual the blind greed of the gun companies who no longer test pistols before marketing them think it is cheaper (so the idiots think) to let the public test them. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. Police officers do NOT get a lot of training unless theyre doing it on their own time at their own expense. Canadas highly-trained counterterrorism force, JTF-2, is the only military unit with the SIG P320 in its inventory right now. Anyway there was one good thing to come from those movies, The USS Vengeance. BTW it was HK that made the first polymer gun, Glock actually stole the idea for the G17 from them. Fact is most SF carry what they want and the Marine Recon I know very well who has friends in that community told me many in the Navy NSW program still carry the Mk 25, they don want a striker fired pistol that can hydrolock in water. Have heard of no issues like the alleged gremlin caused spontaneous discharges of the P320 in other Sig models. . The problems associate with those pistols (and the P365) have long since been ironed out. Got a 40 SW P320 SC on my hip now, got one in 9mm within reach, so far neither has decided to trip the sear without my help. Mine is very accurate. This will include an alternate design that reduces the physical weight of the trigger, sear, and striker while additionally adding a mechanical disconnector. Ron Cohen ruined Kimber and now hes doing the same to SIG. It sounds the same as arguing whether Captain Marvel could beat Superman up in a fist fight its pretty absurd and laughable. Sounds like most of these cases were off-body carry. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. They have similar vertical sear engagement, but the M&P has more engagement width wise. I cant stand Glocks but SIG P320s are junk. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. Their visceral hatred for that which they see as competition to their little golden calf god and their blind, myopic, childish self-identification with an external dynamic is hilarious! The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. The P320 Voluntary Upgrade Program is a SIG SAUER initiative to upgrade P320 pistols at no additional cost . It nicely describes what has to happen in a striker-fired P320 for an un-commanded discharge to happen as the plaintiffs have claimed. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. . That being the case, the 320 is a cocked and locked striker-fired gun; However, it only has two safeties, unlike, say, a 1911, which has four: An inertial firing pin, a positive firing-pin locking safety, a manual sear-locking/blocking safety, and a trigger-bar-blocking grip safety. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g. Grow up, you aint all that! Were not the only ones who have noticed the lawsuits. Again, these are examples the plaintiff in this case is using to support his claim that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. I dont know nothing about Sigs, I do know any gunm that goes off when I lay it on a table gets sold with a warning and I never touch that brand or model again. I also have a manual safety. SIG says ABC had intended to include some of those other claims in their reports, but after SIG informed the network of the additional information that was uncovered, those cases werent included in either of the segments. As for the Serpa holster, this is a bunch of internet echo chamber BS that originated with Obama-era federal agencies putting a bad light on a good product in order to sway public opinion and thus damage the manufacturers bottom line. I used to laugh at his bragging about how skilled he was with a weapon.. Its not credible to claim that people with this amount of training, this amount of skill are all shooting themselves.. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. The problem is non-existent. Legal Penalties. Its interesting that ABC chose to leave that point out of one of their reports. The Glocks lack of a manual safety has caused untold thousands of needless cripplings and death. Would you? If the military was going to go cheap then they should have thrown Taurus into the mix. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. there is no better. Anyway my question for $600 would be: Did you have your 3rd wife killed? It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. Ironic that the trendsetters of yesteryear are trying to tear down the innovator of today because its Not perfected yet! and the Design isnt worked out!. They are plaintiffs versions of what they say happened. With the redesign, you would have to implement a LOT of force to move the trigger backwards. Rather, it's because those LEO P320 pistols are seeing much more physical action than ones carried by civilians. It somehow moved to the hinges of the desk. All those customers who paid $1600 now had a limited function paper weight. It isnt the beginner woodworker who loses fingers. They simply have never been seen in the upper echelon of handgun makers, their entire business model is to offer cheaper guns at cheaper prices. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. These officers are not gunfighters. The list is long proving gun manufactures were well aware of this problem now for 121 years yet they abandoned this when the Glock infested the gun market. ABC ran their story on the P320 twice, but with some significant differences between the two reports. who sells them? Glock is being sued too, because once loaded and a round is chambered, it also has a much lighter trigger than a DA/SA. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. Theres still the P938 extractors snapping they refuse to acknowledge. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. The second, longer version of the ABC story again included comments from Joshua Harrison, the consultant ABC hired to independently assess the P320. I agree that Glock is sitting on their laurels and has been for decades. I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. UPDATE:We were just made aware of YouTuber BoomStick Tactical who produced this video the day before our post published. Not too long after they sold a pistol to the public and United States military thats not even DROP SAFE?!? Big public relations disaster and Sig tries a second time to get the piece of shit to work and not go off when dropped. The problem was strikers. 2. They are being replaced with Glocks. The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. Glocks biggest problem is they havent innovated since 1985. The pictures on the internet were enough to scare the shit out of you especially his wound in the thigh. The same should hold true for the insane marketing of pistols like the totally unsafe Glock. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. People of the Gun are probably familiar with the early problems the P320 had regarding drop safety. If the gangster greed monger criminal Capitalvanians in the gun industry had their products under the jurisdiction of the consumer safety administration all the newer striker fired guns would never have been allowed on the market unless they had manual safeties and a safe take down system. He was told to shoot two rounds. As they should. Where is that defect now? In this version, Bridge City Officer Brittany Hilton tells her story of what she says happened when her P320 discharged as she was carrying it in her purse in what appears to be a SERPA holster (which has had its own problems, but thats another story). Later when he was driving he shifted his weight and this caused the trigger to be pushed back further and it went off and shot him and the bullet then also blew a big hole in the floor board of this truck. RKC, the first time someone presented me with a 1911 whose trigger rivaled my Pythons single action, I started wondering about that. ALL OF THEM. The military has found that the pistol has a tendency to eject live rounds among other issues. But this time, the sound bites used were different. The probable reason that some folks are saying that the P320 is unsafe is that there was a lawsuit filed in federal court in July of 2020 (Guay v. Sig Sauer) alleging that the 320 fired "un-commanded" without a trigger pull while in a holster. In fact, I dont own ANY striker fired polymer pistol. That a shirt tail or jacket cinch cord slips into a holster. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. It did not originally have this. Keep the phrase legal momentum in mind. People who had problems have been replacing them with Lightning Strike SS ones. Theyre the only product that is not. She didnt sue, but swore she would never own another Volvo again. Trigger is lighter than the Glock, it took years of aggressive training to reach the point of acceptable discharges with the Glock. Going on Sigs reputation I bought a P320. A fine of up to $10,000. Because its flat out bull**it. The lawsuit, filed Wednesday on behalf of . First off, no joke on me. Yaaay! First, clearing a loaded firearm with a finger over the muzzle doesnt exhibit even cursory adherence to the Four Rules. Well I jumped in bed with ma and pa , told them that the devil was in Arkansas. Jeff Bagnell, a lawyer in Westport, Conn., who has litigated 10 cases, mostly by commercial gun owners, related to SIG P320 misfires across several U.S. states, took note of the accident involving the Canadian special forces soldier. Theyve also been adopted as duty guns by law enforcement agencies across the country. My dad owned one and that is exactly what happened one time when he was using it. Slowly people are realizing they arent the only ones having issues. Thats the same. Fair enough. Sig P320 discharge while holstered. You clanging a bell that went silent years ago. While we dont have the actual numbers of similar lawsuits filed against other gun makers actually no one individual or organization seems to keep track of these things and gun makers dont want to talk about it it seems highly likely that every major firearm manufacturer gets its share of a regular flow of lawsuits filed by both civilians and LEOs who claim SHAZAM! It was expensive. This gun had been voluntary upgraded. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. Why you and I are arguing over a gun that neither owns or will own, Hilton's $15 million lawsuit said, "there have been 54 reported uncommanded discharges of the P320," meaning the gun went off by itself, over the last five years in 22 states and Washington, D.C. SIG P320s were just the start and the P365 isnt far behind. So your fanboy perjorative falls not only flat but false. The bullet struck a soldier in the leg. But SIG Sauer said it has rectified the issue with upgrades, including one made for the U.S. military which court documents, filed as part of one of the lawsuits, show resulted in substantial changes to the weapons internal design.
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